News
Buyers welcome Wyndeham's Southernprint deal, but voice concerns over consolidation
Magazine print buyers have largely welcomed the acquisition of Southernprint by Wyndeham Press Group owner Walstead Investments, although some have voiced concern over the impact of too much consolidation in the sector.
The deal, which was signed on Monday afternoon (27 July), creates a £100m print group largely focussed on magazine production.
"I think its very good news. I make no secret of my admiration for Southernprint, but it was becoming clear that the likelihood of its parent [Newsquest Media Group] making any significant investment to grow the company was not going to be forthcoming in the current environment," said IPC manufacturing director Jasper Scott.
"I think Paul Utting has done a brilliant job in the way he has transformed Wyndeham since he rescued it from 'Iceland' and I'm very positive about the combined businesses. My sincere hope is they will be able to merge the best bits of both companies. There are a lot of opportunities to link pre-press and print."
He also hinted that the combined group potentially becomes a stronger contender in his £10m review of IPC’s magazine print as a result of the deal.
Chris King, production director of PrintWeek's publisher Haymarket, who recently extended a 35-title deal with Wyndeham, was also supportive of the deal.
"Being a major customer of Wyndeham this is a positive endorsement in the company and Paul Utting by Walstead. It's also a good marriage in terms of plant and personnel," said King.
However, King's and Scott's words of support were countered by a number of buyers who feared the long term consequences of consolidation.
"This deal has got to be good news, because there is a lot of overcapacity in the [magazine] market, with too many people chasing not enough work," said William Reed production director Christopher Reed.
"Is it good that the industry is going down the consolidation route? That's a tough call, because consolidation just means that there will be fewer players in the market for the print buyer and that's a concern. Am I surprised this has happened though, no I'm not."
Several other buyers also mentioned the bindery fire at Southernprint's finishing operation Southernbinders and wondered if Walstead would invest in new binders at Poole when it has a substantial binding operation at Wyndeham Heron.
Another buyer, who wished to remain anonymous, raised the spectre of consolidation in the web offset sector ultimately meaning that the UK market would mirror the US, where there are only two major players.
"From a printers point of view it would be beneficial, longer term though, from a publisher's point of view it would mean substantially less choice and prices would harden. Which wouldn't be good news for us," said the unnamed buyer.
For more details and reaction to the deal, see tomorrow's issue of PrintWeek.
Read associate editor Jo Francis's blog on the deal.
IPC's Scott: "I think it's very good news"
Comments
Edna Bag - 29 July 2009
What did they expect? Buyers have forced this and also been to quick to misjudge the web sector, and voted with their work.
Paul and Charles, this is a blinder well done and wish all the success. The only way is up.
Joseph Carlow - 30 July 2009
So, our anonymous magazine print buyer wants a fragmented market populated by weak players, offering unsustainable prices, making losses but having to offer best-in-class service. Ummm ... doesn't seem to sit well with me.
Roll-on consolidation.
JC
The Mighty Wind - 30 July 2009
Nice to see a hungry beast stalking the web offset jungle again
Justa Print Buyer (C. Kent) - 30 July 2009
Hey Edna, buyers do not force suppliers to lower their prices, not ethical ones anyway. If a supplier gives a rock bottom price what do you expect a buyer to do? say 'no thanks, I want to pay much more than that'
Suppliers that slash their prices to unsustainably low levels are more to blame than unscrupulous buyers.
The buyer in the article who is against consolidation is missing the glaring point that if this merger does not happen, there is a chance that one of the companies might ultimately close down, so the merger is the best option.
I'm in favour of this merger as long as the result is a stronger company with no chance of going pop while it is handling one of my jobs.
Moaner Lisa - 30 July 2009
"If a supplier gives a rock bottom price what do you expect a buyer to do? say 'no thanks, I want to pay much more than that' "
No, of course not, I would expect you to go next door and see if they will do it cheaper though, that is what de best buyers do, that is their job, int it?
Stan Dingtype - 30 July 2009
It's simple really. The cheapest printer will get the job. The cheapest printer will have the lowest margin and therefore is the least likely to survive. The more expensive printer will lower his price to get the work, because without it he definitely won't survive. The more expensive printer will now be equally less likely to survive. If both printers merge, and there is no longer a 'cheapest' printer they will now get the work and the margin, and will be more likely to survive. The clever bit is that the buyer will be none the wiser, because he will still be getting the cheapest available price. Will this happen in real life - no one knows, but good luck to Wyndeham/Southernprint for trying to get the ball rolling!
Justa Print Buyer (C. Kent) - 30 July 2009
Exactly Stan, that was my point. If a print buyer goes with the cheapest quote he/she does not know if that supplier is losing money, the quote is taken in good faith that everybody is happy.
Hence my comment that the kamikaze supplier is as much, if not more, to blame than the buyer.
Moaner, you would make the worst kind of buyer. There's a bit more to it than Ebay.
Bruce Farr - 30 July 2009
Justa
It could depend on how much cheaper than the others the cheapest price is - if you know what I mean.
If there is a large difference, from suppliers with similar kit, then an eyebrow could be raised at the very least
Justa Print Buyer (C. Kent) - 30 July 2009
Yes, if there is a big discrepancy then the price will be queried. You would be surprised how many times printers come back and say 'sorry, I forgot to include the plates / paper / laminating' or whatever.
From personal experience most prices are reasonably close with the occasional sky high price, as and as you say, the occasional give away price.
Bruce Farr - 30 July 2009
Justa
If all buyers took your view, then life would be a lot easier for the manufacturer.
I once made a big error on a quote for a folder, resulting in my price being less than half that of the 4 others who quoted.
Rather than query it, the buyer \(an Agency), gave me the job - when I saw the artwork I immediately realised my mistake and declined as politely as I could, to take the job on.
The next thing that happened was a phone call from the Agency Boss, threatening to sue me for the difference between my price and the price he ended up buying it for from one of the others.
Which was nice.
Jason Bottom - 30 July 2009
Justa you sound like one of the few buyers who have some empathy with the supplier as well as your own company when negotiating. However some Publishers can be as cavalier as print farmers. I spoke to one of the above named & before I could explain fully who, where what we are as was told "you'll have to be really competitive because" so I walked away. The Publishers are certainly not wholly to blame, printers are notorious for beating themselves & each other up but maybe now the worm has turned. I hope so as one of these businesses was once a fine one & the other still is.
The Mighty Wind - 30 July 2009
There really is little point in getting in too a discussion on who cut who's throat in Web Offset, it has been and still is a buyers market but that is beginning to change because the economics of it dictate that it will. The publishing/ buying market will now begin to adjust as time rolls on. The good buyers will not have been completely reliant on the sickness in the market. A med to large Web offset company cannot suddenly change mid stream, he cannot wait for the market to pick up whilst the millions invested goes rusty, newspaper supplements went gravure losing a massive revenue stream and creating big holes in production schedules, mags lost circulation and pagination, PM and buyers saw heaven open in front of them and pushed the price down further, without wondering what the ultimate price would be, too many lifeboats were in the water with holes in the side. Nobody on the boat asks if it is the right bucket to bail water with, you just keep bailing until you sink or it blows over.
The market will balance out on the supply side in time, this will accelerate the process and then I imagine you will see some changes in the demand side [buyers/PM/Publishers] hopefully the pain will then stop for all concerned and an employee can have some job security and start to enjoy there job again in whichever side of the business they work in.
Matthew Parker - 30 July 2009
I do think that sellers AND buyers need to get their heads round the difference between cost and price. There are opportunities for magazine printers to manage added value services which could start to move the emphasis away from a cheapest print only solution. Look at Warners: they offer a lot of services to smaller publishers which makes them a very attractive prospect and makes price less of an issue \(two of their customers have specifically said this to me). Printers could also offer services that could improve efficiency and take cost out of the publisher - anyone know a publisher who enjoys insert management for instance?! This will require a big culture change on both sides in the industry. Of course, these opportunities could be ignored and left for the print management companies instead....
Matthew Parker
www.printandprocurement.com
The Mighty Wind - 30 July 2009
Jason
Quite right, sadly some of our crap printers have ended up surviving hopefully Charles Jarrold's stock will rise in the new org, so he can continue a fine family tradition of quality printing
The Mighty Wind - 30 July 2009
Matthew
Warners are a small publisher / printer and so are closer to that market and have an element of a buffer, even so they had a major wobble recently. These companys in the article and the type under discussion had much deeper problems and operate on a different scale [so the bleeding was worse]. Once it stops or begins to just trickle hopefully there will be room [and the will] to offer better services
26 Lead soldiers - 30 July 2009
Justa I cannot understand why you are the only print buyer fighting the buyers corner, I had a print buyer who asked me for a price on a folder we were approx £500.00 more than the printer he had been using and could I match their price, a refusal always hurts but we politely declined his offer of a second chance, he unfortunately told me the name of the other printer, who had, sadly but understandingly, gone bust, 2 days before his request to us.
Matthew Parker - 30 July 2009
TMW
I understand that Warners work on a different scale and have the publishing background, but I wanted to use a real life example to get my point over. I do feel that there are more publishing management opportunities on a large scale which can benefit printers' profit margins and cut publishers' costs. But you are right that any development on these lines must take the right priority in a printer's business issues: I wanted to talk about a vision for the future. I believe that there are good buyers out there who will understand the benefits. If necessary, an offering can always be taken further up the chain!
Matthew Parker
www.printandprocurement.com
Moaner Lisa - 30 July 2009
"Moaner, you would make the worst kind of buyer. There's a bit more to it than Ebay. "
I probably would, but no there isn't - if a buyer is doing their job they will go for the cheapest (comparable) price - and if everything on E-bay was identical, I would do the same. All Printers can do is ensure they are the cheapest, because if they don't they won't get a look in, usually no feedback at all, just no order. Sometimes the only feedback is that dey missed out by £xxx, or if you drop your price by £xxx etc, OR they receive an order because they were cheapest. If that isn't what happens in your world, what is it you do which is different? I do not believe any buyer who says they get 3 quotes and always go with the middle one (unless, possibly, you work for local government!) It used to be the case that printers specialised, gave exceptional service and quality, had standing film and plates, or specialised knowledge or skills. Nowadays this is simply not the case, and we operate in a 'perfect market' (economist terminology - hextremely misleading!) and price drives demand, because there is over supply. If consolidation leads to a reversal of that, then great. As for "he/she does not know if that supplier is losing money" yes, he/she does, and yes they are, because of the aforementioned situation. Know what I mean?
Bruce Farr - 30 July 2009
Anyway - what's the comment from Mr Godwin?
Justa Print Buyer (C. Kent) - 30 July 2009
Oy Moaner, you obviously think that all a buyer does is buy, don't get too hung up with the job title because the buying aspect of the job is surprisingly small. That's why you would be the worst kind of buyer.
Bruce, I spent about 30 years on your side of the fence, including a 5 year apprenticeship, so I suppose that's why I would rather work with my suppliers than try and beat them up all the time.
Your encounter with the agency that threatened to sue you will always be here I'm afraid. The fact is that some people think that if they've got something that you need it gives them the right to be an arrogant bully. And sadly, there will always be somebody ready to kowtow to them.
Moaner Lisa - 30 July 2009
OY JPB, if you so right, what is the problem with consolidation? Why is what I's sayin' so different from what Stan the Duck is sayin'? I knows about all de things a print buyer does, believe it or not, for all me youthful looks I's bin round de block an' back and climbed up it an' fell off again - and THAT is the point - a good print buyer will know what the job is worth before he places an enquiry, will have the job specification engraved on his mind, and will know he is getting like for like pricing, and should know that price before the quotes fall in his in-tray, or should at the very least have an idea as to the value of that job, having the experience to cost it up himself first. He will understand marginal costing, and the rationale behind the suppliers pricing. A good buyer will know all that, and know when his supplier is skinning himself. He may even let his supplier know whether or not this is necessary, but he will always go for the most advantageous price, knowing that whichever supplier he chooses will deliver, because he has done his homework, an' knows what they capable of. The point is - what threat does consolidation pose? It can only result in better and more stable supply/quality/reliability, and if the price goes up a bit, a good buyer will understand why, and either accept the fact, or if the new price or the politics don't feel right, he will look elsewhere, because a good buyer will always have alternatives, and won't entertain a 'Dutch auction' mentality. Buying is not about being the right side of some fence, it is about understanding the product and the market, bein' part of a team, and using those team skills getting the best margin for your company possible. The printer also knows all this, and if he can't afford to be choosy about his customers (and not many can at the moment) he will price low - not his fault, not the buyer's fault either - bloody Northern Rock's fault an' sub prime an' cr*p government. Know what I's sayin'? Well that ALL I's sayin'.
Bill Davis - 30 July 2009
well done moaner, spot on response you also mention the word value, a very important point and the one thing that price is connected to. If evrything in this industry came down to just price there would be no print farmers, design agencies placing print and FM companies. Well done wyndham I'm sure we will see more aquisitions in due course.
Justa Print Buyer (C. Kent) - 30 July 2009
Flippin' 'eck Moaner calm down dear. If you had read my reply a little while ago you will see I am in favour of this merger. You say you know everthing a print buyer does but all you can quote is the buying aspect of it. And what if a printer buys bankrupt stock and passes the saving on? I'm good but I'm not a mind reader.
Where's Blondie when I need her? Come on girl back me up, these bully boy printers are ganging up on me!
Bill, 'If everything in this industry came down to just price there would be no print farmers, design agencies placing print and FM companies.' are you sure that's what you meant?
martin whetton - 30 July 2009
hey, it's not complicated..
It is called market forces and / or balance of supply and demand. we have had years of growing supply and shrinking demand, prices have dropped to an unsustainable lavel and this has resulted in a thining of the herd. Now we may be getting near parity \(in some sectors) and you will see prices rise to reflect this.
There are forces which have affected the supply / demand balance in the UK: 1 - the resurgance of busted companies, 2 - competition from other EU countries. The banks now seem retisent to back prepacks and the Euro is still expensive. I would guess that things may be a little rosier in the web offset garden, but I would not run down to the brokers and buy Polestar shares just yet.
The Mighty Wind - 30 July 2009
oooooh justa you got moaned at there.........that was a right proper moaning at, she even broke into english and everything.......methinks the sisterhood are gonna get ya, big time.........just wait till edna gets out of the coffin later....messy
Lesley Beckley - 30 July 2009
Afternoon me dears! I have to throw my hat in the ring here. As I buyer I have to trust that my suppliers are giving me sustainable prices. How can I bench mark if the market place is swamped with printers who are selling below cost? It throws the whole 3 quotes out of the window and down the flaming toilet. I made a decision this year with the backing of my employers to only use my exsisting roster of suppliers and share out the work equally. I am doing this based on trust. I have not got any other quotes in I have not taken advantage of the low cost option. I don't want my work to impact unfairly on the market place. I love print, I want to see this industry grow again. NOT ALL BUYERS ARE THE SAME. JUSTA has many valid points and I am here to stand by him. There are good and bad people in all sides of the industry. Not everything comes down to price that is BOLLOX.
Still love you all though Blondie xxx
martin whetton - 30 July 2009
Angel face... potty mouth...
Jon Fennell - 30 July 2009
Matthew - Value services still have a cost, I agree on the value theory but wonder at the effects. For every printer thats adds value to a client and finds a shortcut or different product size to save cash, they detract from profit margin and add more capacity, good for the client bad for the printer.
When you look at it from this angle the client is in a win win, save on staff from his side by using a printers services and save on product, the result is the same as cutting prices to the printer. Warners may be seen to be doing the right thing but are they any better off for it?.
Justa Print Buyer (C. Kent) - 30 July 2009
Mighty, I feel bruised and battered, and all I'm trying to do is earn a crust. I could cheer meself up and screw some poor printer into the ground ;-)
The worst part is ol' Moaner letting the cat out of the bag about how easy this print buying malarky is.
The Mighty Wind - 30 July 2009
[quote user="martin whetton"]
Angel face... potty mouth...
[/quote]
best thing i have read this year
Moaner Lisa - 30 July 2009
JPB quotes -"You say you know everthing a print buyer does" I read dis flippin' thread 3 times now an' I can't see where anyone said dat. F'yo gonna quote me you'd better get de meanin' right an' de wordin' as well 'cos uverwise people might tink you talkin' out of de top of your head. As it happens, I don't know you, so I don't know what else you do other than print buyin' cos dats all you go on about. If you do a bit of sales as well, or a bit of design, or PR an stuff, market research, internal production management, asset management, cost analysis, project managin', hemployee relations, health and safety, accounts, stock control, or cashflow forcastin', part time taxi drivin' or workin de Asda checkout, (or even worse, farmin') - well good for you, but that aint print buyin' is it, cos they's called uver fings. There are all sorts of print buyers, and they all do other different fings, but - they all buy print, like wot you do, THAT is why they are called print buyers, an' dat is why I was tryin' to discuss print buyin' cos them other fings are IRRELEVANT TO THE SUBJECT OF THE THREAD. By de way "I'm in favour of this merger as long as the result is a stronger company with no chance of going pop while it is handling one of my jobs." don't sound heggsactly like a standin' ovation to me! Personally I like print buyers by de way, s'long as dey knows what dey talkin' about, dats what I's talkin 'bout. I's off to catch me bus now dear, I gets on wiv de driver see, cos he a print buyer too, an' I sometimes borrow 'is paper to read on de way home.
Lesley Beckley - 30 July 2009
Martin I will take that as a back handed compliment!
It really is difficult sometimes to get printers to understand that we as buyers love and respect this industry as much as they do. I am passionate about print. I do not want to see its demise and there really are a lot of like minded buyers out there. We are not all procurement based people with a greedy revolving eye on the bottom line. Yes we have to be buying with an eye on the commercial aspect, but we also need to see the value in quality, consistency and deliverability. I see more long term value in having a long term and mutially beneficial relationship with my print partners, than a short term cheap as chips, any supplier will do, get rich quick, attitude. You cannot sustain those kind of relationships any more than you can sustain those kinds of costs. The suppliers will go bust the market will shrink your costs will go up.
Ta very much
Blondie xxx
Justa Print Buyer (C. Kent) - 30 July 2009
Thanks Blondie, you're a gem.
Well, I'm off to Sainsbury's now. No Moaner, not to stack shelves...
The Mighty Wind - 30 July 2009
Justa- reads like she calmed down a bit near the end [last post] and at least potty mouth has got ya back.
The Mighty Wind - 30 July 2009
[quote user="Jon Fennell"]
Matthew - Value services still have a cost, I agree on the value theory but wonder at the effects. For every printer thats adds value to a client and finds a shortcut or different product size to save cash, they detract from profit margin and add more capacity, good for the client bad for the printer.
When you look at it from this angle the client is in a win win, save on staff from his side by using a printers services and save on product, the result is the same as cutting prices to the printer. Warners may be seen to be doing the right thing but are they any better off for it?.
[/quote]
i think there is the potential for integrating back-end services, [which I think Matthew is proposing] however they would need long-term relationships and I am not sure either side has the trust to work that way yet. Warners offer services they already need for there publishing side.
Lesley Beckley - 30 July 2009
[quote user="The Mighty wind"]
[quote user="martin whetton"]
Angel face... potty mouth...
[/quote]
best thing i have read this year
[/quote]
It was rather good. Makes me sound a bit dirty but angelic all at the same time. x
The Mighty Wind - 30 July 2009
[quote user="Lesley Beckley"]
[quote user="The Mighty wind"]
[quote user="martin whetton"]
Angel face... potty mouth...
[/quote]
best thing i have read this year
[/quote]
It was rather good. Makes me sound a bit dirty but angelic all at the same time. x
[/quote]
you carry on like that and you will need a waiting list to get on your suppliers list
Edna Bag - 30 July 2009
Girls, girls and Blondie can you chill, I leave you on yer own and all this bickering starts.
Beckley get in the naughty corner and cool your language and yer passions, what up with yer. You and Mo must be sparking off yer 'ormones.
Justa, enjoy Sainsburys although surprised you ain't a Tesco man, nice to see you supporting the underdog and not the rob everyone for a fat profit dog. Having said that should a good buyer want to spend more on shopping than he needs? Go to Aldi for value alternatives ;-)
Mo, take large deep breaths and don't smudge yer paint yer might expose yerself. (your right by the way)
TMW time for beer is the bar open?
The Mighty Wind - 30 July 2009
EDNA
Madam for the Aldi comment the bar will always be open for you, just drop your 'ormones at the door
Stan Dingtype - 30 July 2009
Ms Beckley sensible words as always, and there are many different kinds of print buyer which is (probably - I got lost) what Mona was trying to get across. Print shouldn't be just about bottom line, and most buyers (especially those with marketing or design backgrounds) do get this. Unfortunately there will always be the cowboys and farmers who need to sell low and buy even lower to survive, distorting price expectations for the rest of us. I used to deal with some big companies who would give you a spec., and tell you whether they needed a keen price, or if there was some fat in the job, sometimes (well, twice!) even offer to pay in advance if it suited their internal budget. There were no web portals or e-mails, you actually spoke to them, met them in the pub on a Friday, and trusted them. Respect was mutual, and we were all well paid, well fed and happy. Memories....what went wrong?
Lesley Beckley - 30 July 2009
Oh my god I love you Edna!!! Mona only half right. Love Mona too but, everyone has thier own version of the truth, equally valid.
I am in the bar I need to rinse out my dirty mouth with vodka...
Blondie x
Lesley Beckley - 30 July 2009
[quote user="Stan Dingtype"]Ms Beckley sensible words as always, and there are many different kinds of print buyer which is (probably - I got lost) what Mona was trying to get across. Print shouldn't be just about bottom line, and most buyers (especially those with marketing or design backgrounds) do get this. Unfortunately there will always be the cowboys and farmers who need to sell low and buy even lower to survive, distorting price expectations for the rest of us. I used to deal with some big companies who would give you a spec., and tell you whether they needed a keen price, or if there was some fat in the job, sometimes (well, twice!) even offer to pay in advance if it suited their internal budget. There were no web portals or e-mails, you actually spoke to them, met them in the pub on a Friday, and trusted them. Respect was mutual, and we were all well paid, well fed and happy. Memories....what went wrong?[/quote]
Procurement people happened, greed happened. But some of us are still here. Come over to the bar my love I am buying.
X
Justa Print Buyer (C. Kent) - 30 July 2009
Just back from Sainsbury's, stopped off at the pub on the way back, it makes the weekly shop more acceptable. A few sherbets and suddenly I love you guys, especially Lesley, she's everybodys favourite.
Edna, if Aldi did a decent organic range I'd shop there, but don't get me started on that, you gorgeous minx.
Chris Lavers - 31 July 2009
Stan
Brilliant last couple of sentences. People in this business, and in any B2B business, ought go out and meet their customers and suppliers and look them in the eye, have a laugh and a joke and a moan maybe - form a relationship, share an experience, grow together. People like people. People need people. If you're a newbie, then don't be too nervous or stroppy - give it a go, you might well enjoy it and it'll definitely be easier the next time. Anyone can knock up a website, and it is a good advertising medium, but when you're actually spending money you have to know who you're dealing with. Else you might easily get burnt time and time again and it'll partly be through your own lacklustreisationalness.
Obviously I don't mean "your" anything , Stan. I would say "one" and "one's" but I ain't posh. I'm trying to get some sort of message out there.
Click - need print
Click - buy print
Click - recieve print
Click - die miserable
Alright - I'm off to Amazon.co.uk to see how much they want for Call of Duty 4. If it's still over a tenner they can kiss mine!
Moaner Lisa - 31 July 2009
lacklustreisationalness - impressive Chris, y'needs to wikipaediorize it quick before anyone else beat you to it!
Stan Dingtype - 31 July 2009
Lesley -"Procurement people happened, greed happened. But some of us are still here. Come over to the bar my love I am buying."
My sincerest apologies for standing you up last night, but I get a bit nervous in bars. I find the absence of water and the fact that people throw bits of bread at me a bit disturbing. Stanley.
Justa Print Buyer (C. Kent) - 31 July 2009
Moaner, you don't seem so gorgeous this morning. But I like you!
Stan & Chris, I used to have some great relationships with print buyers when I was a printer, happy days. I still keep in touch with some. It still happens but not nearly as much, it's a different ball game these days.
Edna Bag - 31 July 2009
Justa, now have concerns about your mental state, organic means expensive but not really much better, means its grown in *hit instead of tasting like *hit, but ain't no better for you or your wallet. Aldi ales cheap and being Wychwood makes it better. Are you one of the blue rinse, block the aisle with the trolley types, while complaining about the weather?.
Thanks for the compliment I likes to think I's a bit gorgeous but only because the dogs whistle and not the fellas. Think you need to lay down and consider whether buying is what you should do and which dogs home you get yer girlfriends from, you's confused ;-)
Apart from that we should bring back dealing in pubs on Friday afternoons and talking not emailing.
Jim Turner - 31 July 2009
Sometimes one wonders if the customer will ever feature in these ramblings as anything other than a figure of miserly loathing or professional derision. True print companies need to be profitable and strong but so do customers. From the local pizza restaurant ordering leaflets to major publishers signing large contracts the business world is one of slim margins. If print prices rise above a critical level them a whole raft of titles will close and relative capacity will back to where we started. Prices need to be fair and to use that much misused word, sustainable but if anyone thinks prices are depressed by customers who are getting rich think again.
There are of course horror stories out there, major business consultancy firms who pride themselves on being paid to tell other business that they should only work with organisations which are on a sound financial footing and that you should get to know your business partner, finding the printer go bust in the middle of producing their work. But these are tales of ignorance not malice, so who is to put the customer straight on these matters? Well for one thing not you lot. The BPFI, behind all the market / management speak, are right, print is a service and none of us can afford to spend too much time over any given job – which means communicating openly and honestly on a digital and personal level.
The Wyndeham / Southern Print deal is irrelevant without customers who can afford the prices but if more printers are to survive they must take on more non-print work, which means, and sorry but that other dreaded word, becoming 'solutions'.
Justa Print Buyer (C. Kent) - 31 July 2009
Jim, did you used to be a teacher? I think you've just told as all off for messing about in class. It was Edna's fault, and Moaner.
Moaner Lisa - 31 July 2009
I just sprayed me tea everywhere! Me tinkin de Bee Pea Eye Heff clearly ain't in de mood for listenin' to no one, let alone readin' what we sayin' properly - wot hindustry/world/planet they on?
Stan Dingtype - 31 July 2009
Mr Turner, do I take it that you advocate printers close down their presses and become solutions managers instead then? Is that possibly what the BPIF mean when they talk about print only forming a small part of the print industry in the future? I think it really important to clarify this point, and would be interested to find out for whom and from what standpoint you are speaking when you say this.
By the way, I don't recall at any point in this thread the customer being referred to "in these ramblings" as "a figure of miserly loathing or professional derision. " I have a particular mistrust of people who join in a thread without having followed its nuances or understood them and make comments like this without any justification, and hope sincerely that you will enlighten us with your thinking. Yours in anticipation. Stanley.
26 Lead soldiers - 31 July 2009
When printers close down because they have run out of money, they turn to becoming print buyers, who buy on price, because they are used to selling on price and price alone. There are some good print buyers out there who actual understand how printing works and the effort that is needed to make it work successfully for them and the printer.
Stan Dingtype - 31 July 2009
I agree with that 26LS, there are some very good buyer out there, who understand not only printing, but also the market forces within which it operates, and it seems to me most people here (especially Lesley) sound as if they fit that image. However there are clearly some who don't or we wouldn't even be discussing it, methinks Miss Lisa might have come across one or two? Any way, I'm back to my pond now, eagerly waiting for Mr Turner to throw me some bits of bread - I'm hungry, are you going to be long Jim?
Bill Cheesman - 31 July 2009
Help - I'm on the wrong forum! Ramblings? Customers miserly? Professional derision? Where did all that come from? I read everything on here and sometimes make the odd comment, but I don't recall ever seeing anyone deriding customers. PMs and farmers yes, but they are fair game (I know, they are customers also).
I can pass all my customers in the street and they will recognise me and I will recognise them. Coffee and biscuits and the odd dram or two in their/my office as well as a chat about all sorts of things other than print.
I must be on the wrong planet or something. Oh well, back to the bar.
Stan Dingtype - 31 July 2009
It's okay Bill, I asked that nice bloke Jim to clarify a few things before Miss Lisa does another wobbly, and I'm sure he'll be back to clear things up shortly. No, I won't join you today, I'll make do with some of that green slimy stuff at the bottom of my pond for lunch thank you (a bit like machine coffee, but you get used to it), and hope the kids don't throw stones at me. Its a tough life, but someone has to live it. Stanley.
Jon Fennell - 31 July 2009
I would say Jim that on here which is a print realm we comment on the industry and leave the worrying about clients for internal discussion. No doubt clients do the same. Doesn't mean we don't appreciate clients and their worth but just as printers need clients, clients need for now the printers so mutual appreciation should apply to all. Will look forward to a client mentioning how printers should be looked after on a similar site. If the BPIF have got it right it will be first it a job to know whose side they are really on.
Moaner Lisa - 31 July 2009
I hopes de BPIHeff doesn’ really hexpect us hall to become other fings than printers, cos isn’t they supposed to be all ‘bout printin’? I thought that was what de ‘P’ stand for? Wouldn’t it be better if someone started marketin’ de industry properly, and supporting it a bit rather than closing it down. Lost, completely lost, fyou asks me.
Stan Dingtype - 31 July 2009
I once was walking through the city with my friend, as you do, and we were lost. He went into a restaurant to ask the way, and I never saw him again. It’s a bit like some people who post here, they don’t really think it through, and don’t listen to others, or read the signs. Perhaps if Sydney had been able to read Mandarin, or recognised the smell of orange sauce, he would have understood too. Where are you Jim?
Justa Print Buyer (C. Kent) - 31 July 2009
Jon, if any of my suppliers read this they'd be clamouring to tell you how valued old yoosta makes them feel. I'm bloody good, but the fact is, I'd be cr*p if my suppliers were cr*p. nuff said...
Jon Fennell - 31 July 2009
M0 thats what the BPIF wants imo, the difference is they know what they are told from other places and listen, shame they don't give printers the same courtesy. Everyone knows better than us because as an industry we are crap at communicating.
Jon Fennell - 31 July 2009
Justa, know your place, personnally I'm only as good as my last job and thats what matters, I'm also only as good as my suppliers. Don't take my comments to much to heart we are a dying breed, judged against the actions of a majority (or so it seems). Know your place and your supporters.
Justa Print Buyer (C. Kent) - 31 July 2009
Jon, You're like a wise old sage...
Justa Print Buyer (C. Kent) - 31 July 2009
None taken
Moaner Lisa - 31 July 2009
Personally, bein' a good communications hexpert, I wouldnt'a mentioned the 'old'. See dat's what make me good mi' me customers, diplaromacy, talk to em nice an' give em wot dey wants dats wot I says. Jus' nippin out to feed the ducks by de way, on me way 'ome, someone need to keep Mister Dingtype happy, 'cos me don't fink he's gettin no reply 'bout de BeaPIHeff somehow. Haff a good wekend by de way. Mo.
Jon Fennell - 31 July 2009
[quote user="Moaner Lisa"]Personally, bein' a good communications hexpert, I wouldnt'a mentioned the 'old'. See dat's what make me good mi' me customers, diplaromacy, talk to em nice an' give em wot dey wants dats wot I says. Jus' nippin out to feed the ducks by de way, on me way 'ome, someone need to keep Mister Dingtype happy, 'cos me don't fink he's gettin no reply 'bout de BeaPIHeff somehow. Haff a good wekend by de way. Mo.[/quote]
Mo like Nina, a one hit wonder, shame Jims thoughts could have been good for us all, on a personal level its a shame that most companies (or suppliers), Gas, lectric, phone ect. don't think much to their customers either, at least we try.
Stan Dingtype - 31 July 2009
Jon, I was just wandering about aimlessly (as usual) and not harming anyone, when this rather large hourglass-figure lady ran up, dubious ethnic origin, and not a pretty sight, especially if you are a duck. She threw a cheese sandwich at me, shouting something like 'there you go, that's what I call ***ing customer service' and carried on towards the bus stop. I wouldn't mind , but the bread was dry, and it wasn't trimmed squarely either. Still it didn't cost me anything, and she won't exactly be putting the man at the cob shop out of business. Back to the reed bed for me, good night all.
Justa Print Buyer (C. Kent) - 31 July 2009
I'll be off to find a nearby phone box and get me pants on the outside soon.
Have a good weekend all.
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