Business

Charlie Minnot - 05 January 2009

If all the sales staff, a lot of the customers and some of the presses have moved up the road to fellow Parvez subsidiary Turner Graphics, surely they will be responsible under TUPE for the unpaid wages and redundancies? It's all very well Anne Field grandstanding about how scandalous it is but surely she should be doing something about this?

Gerry Anderson - 05 January 2009

How come Hollyridge Media, Eastlands Press, Datateam Publishing and the ultimate owner Parvez did not discover the "difficult contract structure" or that the business "employed too many staff for the work that it had" before they bought it only a month before closing it down. Have they never heard of due diligence? As for "the owners had 'no alternative' as the money was not there to pay the staff" surely payment of the staff was something they included in their forecasts when making the purchase decision? If not, serious questions about why not need to asked about whether any of them are fit to serve as company directors!

johnypp200 - 05 January 2009

As far as I was aware, Bas, took the presses to Amesbury, with backing from another source. The two presses left, I believe are still in situ. I agree that it would appear, a degree of "engineering" has taken place!

Brian Kemp - 06 January 2009

I don't think so Johny, the BAS sales staff have already gone up to Turner Graphics and its only the knackered old Borcombe machines that have gone to start up CCR in Amesbury - there's one born every minute!

Bad Boy - 06 January 2009

I think the BAS sales staff have gone to CCR and the Borcombe lot have trotted up to Turners.

Giles Print - 06 January 2009

Carpetbaggers and Asset Strippers come a browsin.

There will be much more of this behaviour in the coming months. Every recession brings out the opportunists.

However, sad tho it is for the workforces involved \(the real workers) a massive shakedown combined with lack of cah for investment may finally get rid of huge overcapacity in this market.

I used to wish I'd chosen another rosier industry such as IT or automobiles but wouldn't swap print for the world.

Let's do battle.

johnypp200 - 06 January 2009

[quote user="Brian Kemp"]

I don't think so Johny, the BAS sales staff have already gone up to Turner Graphics and its only the knackered old Borcombe machines that have gone to start up CCR in Amesbury - there's one born every minute!

[/quote] 

BAS and it's associated sales staff are at Amesbury, not Turners. All of Borcombe presses were past their first flush of youth, including what was left. After the Mpi debacle, Borcombe was nothing but a name, owning nothing, over staffed and under managed! 

Reg Little - 06 January 2009

BAS trading through or with CCR is Ben Crozier and Daniels is off to Turner Graphics in Basingstoke. These two over the past few years have caused many suppliers to lose thousands of punds, numberous people to lose their jobs. Yet they are still around in the Print trade why!. How many more thousands of pounds are paper merchants going to lose before the penny drops that these guys are NO good. Machines disappearing to Croziers BAS and Turners should be sold to raise funds to pay for lost wages and unpaid bills. I run a small printing company and pay my bills 60days on the nose yet these Guys do not pay a penny for their material. I for one will not use any paper merchant that trades with Croziers BAS or any outfit that has Daniels in their team. I will be very interested to see what merchant has been trading with Borcombe in the last few months. The way these guys trade not only put their own employees jobs at risks but other employees of honest employers who cannot compete with this unfair competition.

johnypp200 - 06 January 2009

[quote user="Reg Little"]

BAS trading through or with CCR is Ben Crozier and Daniels is off to Turner Graphics in Basingstoke. These two over the past few years have caused many suppliers to lose thousands of punds, numberous people to lose their jobs. Yet they are still around in the Print trade why!. How many more thousands of pounds are paper merchants going to lose before the penny drops that these guys are NO good. Machines disappearing to Croziers BAS and Turners should be sold to raise funds to pay for lost wages and unpaid bills. I run a small printing company and pay my bills 60days on the nose yet these Guys do not pay a penny for their material. I for one will not use any paper merchant that trades with Croziers BAS or any outfit that has Daniels in their team. I will be very interested to see what merchant has been trading with Borcombe in the last few months. The way these guys trade not only put their own employees jobs at risks but other employees of honest employers who cannot compete with this unfair competition.

[/quote] 

If there's any consolation, in this, I think Mr Daniels was kicked out too, a few days after us! One hatchet job to many I guess!  

Gareth Mullins - 06 January 2009

 Reg, you are way off the mark. BAS will have no association with the aforementioned people anymore. I believe its decent guys trying to build a reputable company. Can't see much wrong with that! They have taken over the leases of two presses from Borcombe. Can't see much wrong with that either! Do you wish to tar everyone who has worked with these guys with the same brush ? Give the good guys a chance to succeed!

Mike Wilce - 06 January 2009

Gareth, I hope all is going to be good for you & all of the 100% decent, honest & lovely people who have been shafted by the reptiles who were responsible for the downfall of several great companies.... The main thing about all of this, is that the current legal system is not capable of dealing with corporate greed/\(ought to be crimes..\(my opinion of course)...Crozier, Daniel & others ....who love their status symbol cars and lifestyles are no better than common criminals, unfortunately, common law does not recognise these types of 'crimes'... neither does the corporate version... & these vile 'beings/ thugs' have exploited the 'system' to their own & very selfish advantage... They care nothing about our industry, and I am sure that once they have exploited this scenario to the full...they will move on elsewhere.....

ps... It is a right nightmare trying to get what you are owed via THE SYSTEM... some 5-6 months later...&... still zilch...!

Good luck.....Mike

Mike Wilce - 06 January 2009

ps.... Plus... any would be suppliers to that lot...Well am sure you know that I don't have to teach you how to suck eggs...

Matthew Thompson - 07 January 2009

I feel for all of you who have been caught up in this mess, I used to work for Datateam Publishing and you have all hit the nail on the head all the Parvez wanted the company for was for a couple of your presses. It makes me very angry that he does this to the printing industry when his publishing arm owns a printing magazine \(Screen Process & Digital Imaging), lots of companies out there should look at who and what type of companies they are doing business with. Good luck to you all for the future and just stay away from companies and people like that in the future.

johnypp200 - 07 January 2009

[quote user="Matthew Thompson"]

I feel for all of you who have been caught up in this mess, I used to work for Datateam Publishing and you have all hit the nail on the head all the Parvez wanted the company for was for a couple of your presses. It makes me very angry that he does this to the printing industry when his publishing arm owns a printing magazine \(Screen Process & Digital Imaging), lots of companies out there should look at who and what type of companies they are doing business with. Good luck to you all for the future and just stay away from companies and people like that in the future.

[/quote]

Whilst I understand, what you are saying, I think, although I worked there, Borcombe had been destroyed by previous owners, to such an extent, there was always a risk that somebody was going to fleece us. Borcombe had become a poisoned chalice, and whilst we had work, getting stock and supplies was a daily challenge! From what I gather, about the machines, I would say good luck, they've had a hard life, the 12 colour included!

Roland Rekord - 07 January 2009

Any new company formed out of the ashes of the whole MPI/Borcombe/Goodman Bayliss/BAS debacle will need substantial credibility. Cash flow will be the driver for long term success and the reformed BAS will, for the first time in a number of years, have their own machines to fill - previously they have traded within Borcombe and used in-house binding. Now they are going it alone - a challenge to any seasoned print professional - I hope the new BAS has a sound business plan they will need all the support and goodwill they can get from their customers and suppliers. Any suggestion that they are backed by an ex MPI Director will create serious concerns.

Roland Rekord - 07 January 2009

thirty years ago BAS had an excellent reputation for fine art printing which they never expoited to the full. The sales person who put BAS on the fine art map retired from the business many years ago and the comapny limped along until aqcuired, in part, by a private individual who then sold BAS to Guilder Graphics - owner, Ben Crozier who very soon introduced his brother in law,to run the comapny and later, I understand, signed the BAS name over to him. so it has become a family business again by the looks of it - brothers in law in print - how long should we give them?

Bad Boy - 07 January 2009

[quote user="Charlie Minnot"]

If all the sales staff, a lot of the customers and some of the presses have moved up the road to fellow Parvez subsidiary Turner Graphics, surely they will be responsible under TUPE for the unpaid wages and redundancies? It's all very well Anne Field grandstanding about how scandalous it is but surely she should be doing something about this?

[/quote]

With the cuts at M & S today there was this comment:

Is this the case for the ex-employees of Borcombe?

johnypp200 - 07 January 2009

[quote user="Bad Boy"]

[quote user="Charlie Minnot"]

If all the sales staff, a lot of the customers and some of the presses have moved up the road to fellow Parvez subsidiary Turner Graphics, surely they will be responsible under TUPE for the unpaid wages and redundancies? It's all very well Anne Field grandstanding about how scandalous it is but surely she should be doing something about this?

[/quote]

With the cuts at M & S today there was this comment:

Is this the case for the ex-employees of Borcombe?

[/quote]

I'm only a Borcombe victim, but as I understand it, we were under our consultation period up to the 22nd, where our 42 redundancies were due to be announced. Then the insolvent card was played, which involved everybody, so who do we take to court ?

johnypp200 - 07 January 2009

[quote user="Gareth Mullins"]

 Reg, you are way off the mark. BAS will have no association with the aforementioned people anymore. I believe its decent guys trying to build a reputable company. Can't see much wrong with that! They have taken over the leases of two presses from Borcombe. Can't see much wrong with that either! Do you wish to tar everyone who has worked with these guys with the same brush ? Give the good guys a chance to succeed!

[/quote]

Mmm, good guys? Who were they then? Were you aware that the presses were going, when they did then? You signed on yet? Oh sorry women and management 1st! But forget the women! Bitter me? Never!

Gareth Mullins - 07 January 2009

Had no idea the presses were going. The first i knew was when the appointed engineers turned up one monday morning. And yes, i signed on ! Shame you can't use your real name !

Reg Little - 07 January 2009

Gareth do you honestly think Ben Crozier has nothing to do with this BAS/CCR set up. Please give us a little credit. Whilst the workers were working\(unpaid!) at Borcombe, presses etc were being shipped off to BAS/CCR. BAS was Crozier's from Guilder Graphic days and still is though via a family third party. I only hope that this time suppliers and customers finally come to their senses and have nothing to do with this BAS/CCR/Crozier set up.

Gareth Mullins - 07 January 2009

So you want suppliers not to trade with a company based on a notion that Ben may be involved ? Well, think about the honest staff who are trying to earn a living up there Reg ! Shouldn't we give them some credit ? Crozier is not involved, but lets shut them down anyway, just to be sure !! Will that Suit???

johnypp200 - 07 January 2009

[quote user="Gareth Mullins"]

So you want suppliers not to trade with a company based on a notion that Ben may be involved ? Well, think about the honest staff who are trying to earn a living up there Reg ! Shouldn't we give them some credit ? Crozier is not involved, but lets shut them down anyway, just to be sure !! Will that Suit???

[/quote] 

These were the honest people who knew weeks before that they had jobs, on presses Borcombe were still using. Whilst the rest of us now thrive on our £60 a week! 

XL 105 - 07 January 2009

 Wot would u have done johnypp200 if they had approached you? Turned it down, i suppose?

The Hadron collider - 08 January 2009

So sorry for all the ex employees of borcombe.

Have been shafted by Daniels/Crozier in the past.

I thought I had been stitched but just before xmas?? what a bunch of scrooges.

If you look at how these people go about shutting down different companies then its the same with every one of them.

Work a month then no pay and the government pick up the bill.

Suppliers lose - employees lose.

Crozier and his band of merry men get off scot free.

MPI may be no more but the lagacy lives on.

johnypp200 - 08 January 2009

[quote user="XL 105"]

 Wot would u have done johnypp200 if they had approached you? Turned it down, i suppose?

[/quote]

Of course not, can't afford principles that high I'm afraid, hence the pseudonym. I've no real beef with the ordinary bloke on the floor, we all would do the same, it's the calculated way we have been treated by them on high. Hence I too, will probably have to run back to that same piper! They have, and the times we are facing, made us what we are, still don't have to agree with it, even if I work there!

stan manley - 08 January 2009

Enough of all this BAS/Crozier stuff what I want to know is, where is Ben's ginger monkey - the grim reaper of the printing word- is he still wearing his cloak of death to spread redundancies and misery.

Where's Daniels? we need to know

The Hadron collider - 08 January 2009

LOL @ ginger monkey.

Quote of the year so far.

johnypp200 - 08 January 2009

[quote user="stan manley"]

Enough of all this BAS/Crozier stuff what I want to know is, where is Ben's ginger monkey - the grim reaper of the printing word- is he still wearing his cloak of death to spread redundancies and misery. Where's Daniels? we need to know

[/quote]

As far as I'm aware he was released on the 22nd, the same as everbody else. I think so I've heard, he has had to queue in the same line as the rest of us at the Job centre.

uwe rosler - 08 January 2009

my eleven year old son asked why i had not called the police about my months missing wages i could not explain i told him the people i worked for were crooks so he did not understand can any one explain

Bad Boy - 12 January 2009

[quote user="johnypp200"]

If there's any consolation, in this, I think Mr Daniels was kicked out too, a few days after us! One hatchet job to many I guess!  

[/quote]

Hardy Har Har! Can you just imagine the CV?

Joined company, treated staff like dirt, made some staff redundant (while wearing black shirt), made all staff redundant and closed firm.

Joined company, treated staff like dirt, made some staff redundant (while wearing black shirt), made all staff redundant and closed firm.

Joined company, treated staff like dirt, made some staff redundant (while wearing black shirt), made all staff redundant and closed firm.

Joined company, treated staff like dirt, made some staff redundant (while wearing black shirt), made all staff redundant and closed firm.

Joined company, treated staff like dirt, made some staff redundant (while wearing black shirt), made all staff redundant and closed firm.

..................................................

antony stevens - 12 January 2009

Liquidator - what Liquidator. It appears that the 'formal meeting' to appoint the liquidator takes place later this month and so it will be a few weeks after that before anything is heard! What an absolute shambles.

johnypp200 - 12 January 2009

[quote user="antony stevens"]

Liquidator - what Liquidator. It appears that the 'formal meeting' to appoint the liquidator takes place later this month and so it will be a few weeks after that before anything is heard! What an absolute shambles.

[/quote]

Perhaps they are gonna pay us then Rocky!

The Hadron collider - 12 January 2009

 The net is closing in on these fraudsters. The BBC have taken a great interest in the way these people have been conducting their business dealings.

The truth will be there for all to see soon. 

antony stevens - 12 January 2009

7 weeks on and still no money. Even the Job Centre is taking its time although I am in 'the system' at last! Hope everyone else is managing ok. Do you think they will pay us interest?? ha ha

Barry Berlyn - 12 January 2009

For what its worth I want to thank Messrs Crozier & Dolan who started this merry go round - You have ultimately got me out of the print industy. I found a job today and thank god it is outside.

I hope that 'net' closes in on them and quick.

The formal Liquidation meeting takes place 27/01/09 so any forms anyone has sent for statutory redundancy to David Rubin & Partners will also not see the light of day as far as the government scheme until late Feb / Early March when we will see the money. P45s similarly cannot in theory be done by the liquidator until 27/01 though Perhaps Datateam can assist if required.

Goodbye for ever and good luck in the future

bob carmichael - 13 January 2009

A few point I would like to state.

Mr Abbott applied for credit from various suppliers for BAS including me as from late October

Mr Crozier worked part time at CCR after MPI

Why did Mr Abbott ask the BAS staff to resign in mid December When did Mr Abbott have rights on the BAS name

Who introduced Mr Abbott to CCR

Mr Abbott helped himself at B&T and he has done so again at Borcombe

Enough is enough sorry for the staff but it stinks

bob carmichael - 13 January 2009

What do MacNaughtons and H/Berg have to say about BAS

Barry Berlyn - 14 January 2009

Bob Carmichael

Who are CCR ?

Mr Abbott & Mr Crozier are Brothers in Law - thats the connection

Bad Boy - 14 January 2009

[quote user="Barry Berlyn"]

Bob Carmichael Who are CCR ? Mr Abbott & Mr Crozier are Brothers in Law - thats the connection

[/quote]

CCR are the oufit that's giving floorspace to the new BAS. 

antony stevens - 17 January 2009

Has anyone else out there had problems claiming Jobseeker's allowance. Apparently I've not paid enough in despite the money disappearing from my pay each month? WHERE IS IT????

uwe rosler - 17 January 2009

me too shortfall in ni contributions strange that been working last 20 years

Krusty The Clown - 17 January 2009

 Yeah, seems most of Borcombe have had this problem. If you call the NI enquiries helpline on 0845 3021479 and quote your NI Number they will confirm if you are short or not. Me, being a Borcombe employee for 12 years am Ok, they said I am fully paid up despite being told otherwise by Jobseekers. I filed my dispute and it was delt with quickly and I'm now at last receiving Jobseekers allowance. I took all my P60's in to the Job Centre and got them copied and all was well. If however, you are ex Guilder Graphics then you may find you have a problem with years 05/06. Call NI and check before you dispute anything with Jobseekers. NI are very helpful people and will advise what to do if you come up short. Hope this helps!

antony stevens - 18 January 2009

Krusty The Clown - thanks for the info. Do you know why there is a problem with these tax years?

Krusty The Clown - 18 January 2009

 Hi Rocky, It's Chris from Repro. It seems that some payments were not made by Guilder when MPI came on board. I spoke to Jim and he's missing quite a bit. Couldn't say if this was intentional of Guilder but it hasn't helped his chances of getting Jobseekers. Speak to NI if you haven't already, It may not be everyone at Guilder, fingers crossed!

antony stevens - 18 January 2009

Hi Chris, Thanks for that \(I think)! I will keep you posted.

antony stevens - 19 January 2009

Hi again, it would appear that all will be ok. The error seems to be from when Guilders changed to Borcombe. Have to go to Job Centre again tomorrow to have P60's etc sent internally. NI were very helpful as we the people at Totton.

Reg Little - 20 January 2009

It looks like Southern Paper and thus the rest of the group Howard Smith and Antalis are trading with CCR/Crozier's BAS outfit. How many more bad debts will they have to take before the penny finally drops. In the meantime the rest of the honest bill paying printers will have to suffer another material increase. CCR/BAS can put out stupid unrealistic low prices simply because they do not have to pay for the paper. These merchants are destroying the honest hardworking printers who they need to buy their products.

Gareth Mullins - 21 January 2009

 Now Crozier and Dolan are out of the industry shouldn't we look at the latest guy replicating the MPI business plan. Parvez Kayani.

Closed Borcombe on the 22nd Dec with no pay for the month, owing money to Southern paper, Robert Horne, Sun Chemical, Druckfarben, Profinish, New Forest Binding, to name but a few. And whats he doing now? Expanding his business at Turners in Basingstoke! Can't believe he hasn't got a mention through all this. Whats your thoughts on this guy Reg?

antony stevens - 22 January 2009

I don't know about Reg's thoughts but these men are obviously not fit to run businesses. Lets hope that action can be taken against them to stop it happening to anyone else.

Matthew Thompson - 22 January 2009

 You want to take a look at www.datateam.co.uk as he owns a publishing company and its very well known throughout the industry not as a good company.

 I used to work there and as I said before he has a magazine called Screen Process & Digital Imaging which looks at the digital and screen printing markets and some of there clients are Robert Horne, Sun Chemical Etc Etc

 It's about time someone to note of how people do business and treat us the workers who make guy's like this money.

 Good look to you all and I think if enough people did more then people like these would be out of business.

If you want any info then please let me know.

 Cheers

Mike Wilce - 23 January 2009

Turnergraphic used to be a good company...

Mike Wilce - 23 January 2009

Parvez...huh! cant speak...have been gagged....my throat ...am dying...

Mike Wilce - 23 January 2009

C Daniel... where are you?

Dave Benham - 07 March 2009

It's been a few weeks now so the anger at being used and lied to has subsided slightly.

I would like to say 'thanks' to the directors of Borcombe.Gardiner,Daniels and Hunt- Dumb Dumber and Clueless.

Never before have I worked alongside such lazy,selfish users.Add to that lazy,selfish sales staff \(not all,but most-Carter,Field etc) and we were really on a hiding to nothing.

So well done guys,thanks for putting my family on the bread line.

I sincerely hope that you all get what you deserve, and I hope that see it soon.

David Beckham - 11 March 2009

.

David Beckham - 11 March 2009

.,

David Beckham - 11 March 2009

Dave [EDITED] if it was'nt for Field & Carter Borcombe would have finished long before!

Dave Benham - 12 March 2009

Really???

When Borcombe was going down the pan,why wasn't Tony cracking the whip and demanding more.

The sales staff were just too comfortable and concerned with their own commissions.

johnypp200 - 12 March 2009

 Don't think that totally fair, they brought in a fair bit of work between them, the commisions, maybe a different issue. The fault lies in my eyes, with Mr Crozier, and his fanciful buisiness plans and creative accounting!

Barry Berlyn - 12 March 2009

Is it not amazing that Mr Crozier , Daniels et al do not come and defend themselves on this website ?

They may hide and not even bother looking here anymore because the damage is done and they have found greener fields to run around in.

I still do even though it is no concern to me anymore - I do so because there are others who have corresponded here who I knew, respected & have through no fault of their own been dumped in the brown stuff with little prospect of a quick fix and have been given crass regard for their situation.

Is it worth writing to the IOD I wonder regarding their conduct as directors, I wonder, so that this farce is ended once and for all ! Certainly everyone who got the questionaire recently should notify the Liquidator post haste before the 6 months is up for the 1st report being due to creditors.

Best wishes to all my ex colleagues and friends in Romsey & Dorchester before that.

Dave Benham - 17 March 2009

johnnypp200 you are right.

I'm sorry if i'm ranting.Of course I don't solely blame sales for Borcombe's demise,in fact I liked them\(I know it doesn't sound like it but I did). I do however feel that they could and should have done more.

We all know where the blame truly lies.

I would like to say here that I loved working at Borcombe and met some lovely people who I wish every success in these difficult times.In the same light I can't type what I wish for the cheating liars who have added to these difficult times.